To Tortured Logic wrote on Dec 3, 2007 8:15 PM:
" Wow. "Dale wants to torture and you know it?!!!" My "immoral deception?!!!!" You have become unhinged and sound like a raving, reprobate, lunatic. I'm embarrassed for you. Passion is a wonderful thing but you sound like one of those, "cause-of-the- month, big-mouthed, morons who just wants to be on tv. Again, you're either unbalanced or just young and ignorant. For your sake, I hope it's the latter. Wow, get a grip. "
Stebbins wrote on Dec 3, 2007 3:17 PM:
" To "Tortured Logic": Thank you so much for taking on the thankless task of holding the line against people who are, indeed, willing to torture logic in order to defend their self-righteous positions. I don't have the time or talent to be as vigilant about this as you are. But, believe me, your efforts are noticed and appreciated. Semper fi. "
Tortured Logic wrote on Dec 3, 2007 9:32 AM:
" I'm sorry, but you can't make Dale Gabriel's letter into something it isn't. It isn't his innocent and evenhanded comparison between two "barbaric" activities. He isn't offering to give up his bloodlust for revenge and torture if Durbin will simply come to his senses on one method of abortion. Dale wants to torture. And you know it. And, as you well know and accept, the hyperventilation about D&C is the leading edge of a marketing wedge designed to incrementally eliminate abortion in America (just like ID/Creationism and other oh-so-subtle tactics). That Dale's true character was revealed in his hamfisted argument was a good thing. Your immoral deception, however, is more of a problem. Sure you mix in the requisite insults, but you also want to appear "pro-life" across the board, you know, like Pope John Paul II. But I'm wondering about your pro-life consistency. Are you passing out condoms on street corners (to gay and straight alike)? Are you picketing churches who support the dangerous farce of abstinence-only education? Are you a pro-life Democrat, or are you a willing accomplice to all sorts of horrific and barbaric acts on the part of the Republican party? These would include warmongering, torture, economic oppression, fascistic authoritarianism, the perversion of religion, among others. Well? Are you against abortion, and unwittingly for the destruction of all life via global warming? Regardless of their thoughts on life in the womb, most Americans do not want to take rights away from women. "
Back to Gabriel wrote on Dec 3, 2007 7:32 AM:
" Senator Durbin calls "waterboarding" torture of such magnitude that it never should be used on terrorists to obtain information to protect Americans or free people. Yet, he has no moral outrage at partial-birth abortion. He opposes the "torture" of one life but happily endorses the killing of another. What is up with that logic? Senator Durbin, how does the sound of 20 plus million babies singing Yes, Jesus Loves Me when you stand before the judgement seat. Scary thought isn't it. "
continued.... wrote on Dec 2, 2007 10:52 AM:
" ....seriously, the punishment is something that would have to be discussed at length and with careful deliberation. If and when we get to that point, I will consider it carefully and logically and remain the humane person I am. You are attempting to demonize anyone who opposes abortion and label them as someone who has no compassion and wants to demoralize women. I am a woman, why would I want to demoralize my own gender? I simply disagree with the mentality that it is okay to abort a child and in addition, to use abortion as a means of birth control when there are so many effective ways to prevent pregnancy in the first place. As I said before, I've been there, have you? I know what it's like to be young and pregnant and crazy-scared about it. As long as we have people like you who spread your own convenient brand of the gospel, preaching that it's not a life and therefore okay to do away with it, our abortion rates will continue to appall those of us who simply want to live in a humane society. Again, I do not condone abortion and I do not condone torture of anyone. I realize that doesn't fit your perception of someone who opposes abortion and does not allow you to logically label me as a sicko but that's the the truth...whether you choose to believe it or not. "
To Tortured Logic wrote on Dec 2, 2007 10:23 AM:
" I think your anger is prohibiting you of rational thought. Your perception that Mr. Gabriel’s letter is “hate-filled & morally-bankrupt” seems to indicate this. As I stated before, his letter is an attempt to point out the hypocrisy of people who “fight” for one form of torture and denounce another. If you refuse to even entertain the idea that abortion procedures, in particular partial-birth abortion procedures, are barbaric, you are indeed a closed-minded individual and cannot be reasoned with. But then again, to consider that abortion is barbaric, you would have to acknowledge the fact that you promote a “morally bankrupt,” cruel, inhumane practice and that just doesn’t sit well with you, right? A legal right that reaffirms the “personhood of women?!!!!” What a shame that we, as women, can be “affirmed as people” if we are given the legal right to abort our children. Is there no other way to gain respect as women?!! Morally bankrupt? You may want to study the subject more thoroughly. That will take some bravery on your part but I encourage you to do so. In addition, I am dodging nothing. This forum only allows so many words per post and priority one is addressing the morality/immorality of abortion & torture. Your in-your-face, badgering comments concerning punishment for having an abortion if it’s outlawed? You want me to say capitol punishment, right? Hahaha! Try the decaf, my friend. "
HMmmmsez wrote on Dec 1, 2007 9:14 AM:
" While I'm pro life. I'm not anti host. Telling a woman she must when she really doesn't want to will never work. It never has. And torture. Torture has been proven to usually be ineffective. Case in point. The Salem witch trials. Witch... er.. Which, by the way, are seldom if ever mentioned, especially not in church. Holier than thou republicans are pro church because religion prohibits free thinking. Like George Carlin has said. I say republicans are he*l bent on making sure a kid gets here after which they forget about them in the altogether save for possibly needing the less affluent ones when they reach age eighteen. Eighteen year olds, these days, have evidently wised up. Army recruiting standards have really been lowered along with the addition of the twenty thousand dollar fast track to Iraq bonus money. "
Tortured Logic wrote on Dec 1, 2007 9:00 AM:
" No. You are wrong. This argument was originally framed as a hate-filled and morally bankrupt defense of our current American practice of Torture which, as you refuse to acknowledge, is already in violation of current American laws. Torture, for the first time in our country's history is being instituted as part of our law and practice by a Republican administration and members of Congress that I suspect you support (or are you willing to renounce them, fight against them, and make sure that none of their despicable kind ever return to power?). While it is a huge step towards humanity for you to grudgingly admit that you would, hypothetically, be against torture, you have connected your support by demanding that women be forced to bear children. The majority of Americans simply do not grant your presuppositions with regards to abortion. They do not consider it to be barbarism, they do not see it as murder. We see it as a legal right that reaffirms the personhood of women in our society. It is worth fighting against those who would want to overthrow American laws..and you are dodging the issue of how you would specifically punish those who you consider "baby-killers." So sure, we could talk about abortion, but the sickos here want to dehumanize women in the same way that they want to dehumanize those suspected of being connected to potential terrorism. They are cowards. "
Thanks for the welcome:) wrote on Nov 30, 2007 9:13 PM:
" This conversation is about the hypocrisy of those who cry foul over one form of barbarism while shamelessly promoting another. You seem to fit into that category well. I think you would greatly benefit from a course in critical thinking. Your comments/ideas are, in my opinion, half-baked, promote moral irresponsibility and are quite frankly juvenile. We, as human beings, have a moral obligation to ourselves and to each other to make our society and our world a better place. Logically, you cannot build (and be a positive contributing part of) a society that values human life if you support (or in your case, radically promote and campaign for) abortion. . . .the same applies to torture. I have no problem with our government passing LAWS that prohibit BOTH practices. And by the way, if one CHOOSES to break those laws, it stands to reason that a punishment will follow. I grasped that concept at about the age of four or five. Seriously, stop drinking the liberal kool-aid...it's rotting your brain. "
Tortured Logic wrote on Nov 29, 2007 10:57 PM:
" Welcome to the conversation... Thanks for the earful on abortion, but no thanks, I'm not buying what you're selling. Care to share with the community what you believe should be done to those women who choose that "unspeakable, horrific act of abortion?" Perhaps you should redirect your anger to those killers disguised in maternity clothes. Share with us your vision of an American government that forces women to bear children...and feel free to weigh in on the torture issue as well. Because this conversation is about a whole lot more than one or two things... "
Salo wrote on Nov 29, 2007 9:42 PM:
" When we use torture, we lost the high ground to criticize its use and punish those who do ( by punish, I mean through legal means, not torture). The temptation is there to say that if we could save lives, we should torture away, and it is a hard one to refute. But, we must not become another endless nation of hate. I despise Bush, but I do know we have not had a terrorist attack since 9/11. Why? is it luck? is it planning? I don't know. We must regain the moral certainty we had before and lead the world in honestly ending terrorism. "
To Tortured Logic wrote on Nov 29, 2007 8:54 PM:
" Please recite your accusations while looking in the mirror. You claim that those who abhor abortion are attempting to push their beliefs on you and society....what exactly are YOU doing? From your comments, it's apparent you have been brainwashed by a sorely misguided feminist at some point in your life. You obviously think that only men and/or religious fanatics are opposed to the unspeakable, horrific act of abortion...I am neither. I am a woman who refused to take the easy way out even when people like YOU badgered me daily insisting that abortion was the only "logical" answer to my predicament. I was carted off to a clinic where women who were far enough along in their pregnancies they were wearing maternity clothes. It was a hellhole and thankfully I found the courage to look those people in the eye and tell them I wanted no part of it. Waaay back in 1985, over 4000 abortions were performed daily in the US - less than 2% involved rape and/or incest. Logic: Abortion = birth control. Stop hating "the man" long enough to realize exactly what it is you're promoting...a big fat lie. You, my friend, are a salesman....you sell death disguised as "independence from the man." A woman has the right to choose - maybe she should choose to speak up and expose the lies you are propagating. What a disgrace to your gender. "
no doubt wrote on Nov 28, 2007 3:43 PM:
" There is no doubt in my mind that Durbin is a patriot standing up for the good of his country, while Gabriel is a demagogue willing to sacrifice his country for his narrow-minded life view. "
Tortured Logic wrote on Nov 28, 2007 2:46 PM:
" People like Mister Twisted support violations of U.S. Laws against the use of Torture on Human Beings. They also want to overthrow U.S. Laws that permit American Women to have some freedom over their lives. So I'm waiting for these Lawless Punks to step up and lay out the criminal consequences for their daughter, or wife, or mother who has an abortion. They're claiming 'premeditated murder.' What's it gonna be? 20 Years to Life? The Death Penalty? They want to offer two choices: strap the little ladies down until they pop one out for papa, or off you go to prison... Is it any surprise that they're sickos for Torture? Twisted indeed. "
HMmmmsez wrote on Nov 28, 2007 11:44 AM:
" Back atcha Humsaid: As per usual. I continue to feel with my fingers, and, I wasn't aware I had agreed to a debate. Come on back and tell me more you purportedly know. "
Carey wrote on Nov 28, 2007 9:37 AM:
" Dale Gabriel does a disservice to our country and to rational thought by torturing logic to attack Senator Durbin. There are plenty of Republicans and retired military officers who oppose the institutionalization of torture by our government. Any patriotic American and thinking human being does. Gabriel's desperation to attack Durbin is apparent. His ability to make a cogent argument is not. "
Matt from St. Louis wrote on Nov 27, 2007 8:33 PM:
" Thanks, Maria, for the reminder that we are all so close to some of the best natural scenery in the country. There's not much better than a weekend camping out at Garden of the Gods and spending time with family and friends. The smell of smoke from a campfire. Making s'mores. Playing frisbee. Climbing on rocks. Watching the hawks fly around. Thanks again! "
Dick Durbin wrote on Nov 27, 2007 3:28 PM:
" Durbin's opinion of waterboarding really isn't the issue. He is just invested in America's defeat in Iraq and elsewhere. Hard to understand the reprobate mind and how it works so don't try. "
Twisted Logic wrote on Nov 27, 2007 3:25 PM:
" It's a myth that we make terrorists because we use "torture". No one has established we have used torture...but let's pretend. Water boarding is not torture by Geneva definitions because the terriorists are not covered by the Geneva "rules". Abortion is not murder if you are not a Christian. It is just another pagan ritual. If we don't shut our borders soon we'll not have to worry about the Chinese. We have another problem. Charlie is right...they kill because they want to kill. It's very simple. It is not complex (for you liberal folks). "
no doubt wrote on Nov 27, 2007 8:40 AM:
" When you argue in favor of torture, you have already lost much more than just the argument. Thank goodness Senator Durbin is willing to stand up against torture and the torturers. They have done more harm to our country than any external enemy. "
RE: Charlie1935 wrote on Nov 26, 2007 9:11 PM:
" Charlie1935 wrote on Nov 24, 2007 3:28 PM:
" The terrorists in Iraq and for that matter the rest of the world think nothing of killing children of all ages or any one else."
One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. We used to call them partisans, or resistance, or underground, or guerilla etc.
I any case, they fight an invader (that's us) who invaded and occupies their country (Iraq).
Remind me - what exactly are we doing down there?
These "
Re Hmmsaid wrote on Nov 26, 2007 8:28 PM:
" One of the first things learned in a HIGH SCHOOL debate class is that, when your opponent starts with the name calling - it's over, you won the debate because your opponent has nothing left to debate you with. How's it feel to be out of debate ammo, Hmmmmmmmsez???? lol "
Tortured Logic wrote on Nov 26, 2007 4:11 PM:
" Ha, Ha. This is a twisted game for you Torture Sickos, so here goes: When Americans Torture an Innocent Person they may very well turn them into a Terrorist. Before, they were only a potential terrorist, but now, by our Patriotic American Torture, we have turned an innocent human being into an evil person (which I think is the equivalent of "Playing Satan"). On the other hand, forcing women to die by outlawing a safe method of abortion is the killing of an actual American Citizen instead of a potential American Citizen. And, here's some Tortured Logic: If we outlaw all abortions, and all birth control, we can turn All Sex into a Government Mandated Procreation Plan ("Huckabee-Care"?). As our Patriotic American Population explodes, and as our foreign debt soars, the Chinese will take over the United States and then Mandate Abortions, allowing each couple to have only have one child, preferably male. For those who want to outlaw abortions, you would think this would be a bummer...but since there would be a lot more men this would fit right into their anti-woman agenda... See...ha, ha...fun isn't it! "
It's what it is wrote on Nov 26, 2007 6:00 AM:
" Waterboarding a terrorist--who knows about future killings of innocent people--is ILLEAGL. Cutting a kid into little chunks it LEGAL. Darn, when using such logic, slavery and whites-only drinking fountains seem like defendable ideas, except for one tiny problem. Slavery is inhumane and cutting up babies, ethically speaking, is still "m**der". "
re: hmmmzzzzz wrote on Nov 25, 2007 7:51 AM:
" No wealth here dude. Just making the point that your solutions are always that the government take your neighbors money and give it to whomever you think "deserves" it. That seems to be your "fix" for everything. "
Re Re Hmmmmzzzeeee wrote on Nov 24, 2007 9:05 PM:
" I wasn't aware of your wealth. Why not sit back and relax in (or on) your lazy boy and watch your flat screen TV. If you don't stop worrying about it all. You could get an ulcer, and yup. I'm aware stomach ulcers are caused "mostly" by bacteria. "
Charlie1935 wrote on Nov 24, 2007 3:28 PM:
" The terrorists in Iraq and for that matter the rest of the world think nothing of killing children of all ages or any one else. We should do unto them as they do unto others, just try to do it first. "
re: Hmmmmzzzeeee wrote on Nov 24, 2007 7:47 AM:
" Always making the point that it is the governments (his neighbors wages that are taxed) to take care of "everyone" that fits into some liberal specified classified select group of people that, from birth, are encouraged to ride in the wagon while everyone else works to pull it. "
1st Amendment wrote on Nov 20, 2007 11:16 PM:
" Re: "me"- I gave you a hard time on a different post, mostly because lesser intellects had irrated me and you happened to be the last in the line; then later, I read something else you wrote that convinced me you are objective and have good intentions. We don't agree on everything, clearly, but since my last direct response I have read things that convince me that we would agree about much, I would advocate an early education program that promoted life, that could bring left and right together. Truth be told, most democrats advocate capitalism, WITH proper regulation; AND sexual responsibility. Bottom line, I respect people that consistently value life, not just pre-birth. "
HMmmmsez wrote on Nov 20, 2007 5:04 PM:
" Since you goof balls continue to support Curious George. (even after ex presidential press secretary Scott McClellan's revelations?) Its easy to see how you would associate pedophilia with partial birth abortion. What with your base secretly harbouring more of the likes of Foley, Haggard, and Craig in your midst really doesn't go well with your bringing up pedophilia. "
dee wrote on Nov 20, 2007 11:35 AM:
" OK, let's get real here. Can anybody give me any statistics on partial-birth abortions? How many were performed in the United States last year? More importantly, how many involved babies/fetuses (your choice of word) that would have survived for more than 24 hours after birth? How many involved prospective children who would have a life with a functioning brain?
Consider the following scenario. Your wife is approaching childbirth. The fetus shows no brainwave activity. If the pregnancy comes to term, your wife has a 30% chance of survival. If a partial-birth abortion is carried out, your wife has a 90% chance of survival. A ban on partial-birth abortion sentences your wife to death. This is not an outlandish scenario; it is (thankfully) very rare but not unknown.
No, partial-birth abortion should be legal. It should also be very heavily restricted, and the rules should be strictly enforced. It should NOT be a matter of "choice."
Of course, there will be practitioners who stretch the rules. But, if partial-birth abortion is illegal, those practitioners will carry them out illegally. The only difference is that a greater percentage of the mothers will die. "
Vebum sat sapianti wrote on Nov 20, 2007 12:35 AM:
" Re: illegitimis non carborundum. Wanna' bet that "intellectually stimulating letters" won't make it past the internationally renowned "Letter of the Month" committee? Also, I’m here to advise that “illegitimis non carborundum” translated from Latin means “don’t let the ba**ards get you down”. "
Tortured Logic wrote on Nov 19, 2007 11:55 PM:
" Sure, we could talk about abortion, but Dale wants Americans to torture people...and several sick people lunge forward, cheering him on. Instead of fixating on forcing women to bear children, why not give half-a-seconds' thought to how you will explain your twisted conceptions of America to your children or grandchildren? Torture is wrong, and every good-hearted American knows this. But I'm betting that lots of those against abortion will line up to vote for Rudy. Why? Because regardless of his abortion stance, he is a sicko on torture...which somehow is more important to Pat Robertson. These charming folks want to strap people down and either waterboard them, or make them bear children. They are cowards. "
To BS Shooter: wrote on Nov 19, 2007 6:34 PM:
" Are you a licensed tongue-in-cheek shooter aiming at the non-Thanksgiving turkeys of nebulous thinking? ps: If your license is legit, I’m here to inform you that you hit the target smack dab in the tail feathers. "
Amended Truths = Lies wrote on Nov 19, 2007 3:00 PM:
" Mr. "Amendment" writes that there's at “need for abortions is because the same people like Gabriel oppose sex education and access to contraceptives for teenagers." How goofy is that? Think about it...when the "illegitimacy rate" was less than 10%, schools did not teach sex education. Now, depending on ethnicity, the rates are 22% or 42%. It's stunning how people stretch truth to defend ideology. "
Mumbo-Jumbo wrote on Nov 19, 2007 10:40 AM:
" Hmmz asked “How many partial birth abortions were actually performed here in America last year? I've heard few.” Isn’t that like asking…”how many children were attacked by pedophiles last year”? "
Sgt. Bilko wrote on Nov 19, 2007 10:34 AM:
" Hey, don't you guys understand? Durbin's motto is "America...Born to Loose". "
me wrote on Nov 19, 2007 10:32 AM:
" To HMmmmsez: Twisted thinking "
me wrote on Nov 19, 2007 10:30 AM:
" To Tortured Logic: Actually, I think the point of Gabriel's letter was the hypocrisy and wrongness of the laws our political leaders and mostly left-wing pass. I think he did a very good job pointing this out. This was a fantastic letter. He made his point very well. "
me wrote on Nov 19, 2007 10:27 AM:
" re 1st Amendment: If more people would TEACH their kids abstinance and be a good example, I bet there would be a lot less abortions. But another issue is that many, many of these abortions are done be adults, often secure adults, who either do not want to be encumbered, or who tell themselves they cannot afford a child. And late-term abortions, or partial-birth abortions, are what this man was speaking of. Most people who go ahead and have the child are very glad they did. There are alternatives, too, such as adoption. I do believe there is tremendous value to teaching the value of life. That value of life teaching would then carry over into other aspects of our presence here on earth. And these children are not just "tissue" or "unviable" when they are late term. The only arguement that holds water for me in this issue, is that I would not want a child born into this world to a parent who would abuse or severely neglect the child. But is that is the case, then it should never be a "late-term" abortion. And it should NOT happen more than one time. When it comes to children, they want to please. They want rules. One of those rules should be to keep your pants zipped. That does not mean that they should also not be taught how to prevent pregnancy. "
Illegitimis non carborundum wrote on Nov 19, 2007 7:55 AM:
" Usually, this page is confined to the ho-hum and mundane. You know, the anti-or-pro Poshard stuff or the drone of the pro-or-anti Bush crowd. Speaking only in terms of intellectually stimulating letters, two letters stand out. The above letter from Gabriel, and a letter of some months ago, about “Lincoln’s perceived persona” during the Civil War. Such writing is welcome relief. "
Agnostic wrote on Nov 19, 2007 7:09 AM:
" As an agnostic, I agree with Gabriel's commentary about both the bloody, black art of abortion and Sen. Durbin's moral compass. "
Tortured Logic II wrote on Nov 19, 2007 6:45 AM:
" Dismembering a child is NOT torture? Thank you Mr. Gabriel for reminding me how utterly cruel these people are and what a mean-spirited, hateful and opportunistic little troll our Senator is. Oh yes, thank you Southern Illinoisan--for I’m certain that lots of anti-1st Amendment flack is headed your way. "
Jimbo wrote on Nov 19, 2007 6:33 AM:
" When critiquing Mr. Gabriel's clear-headed and well-written letter, there was not one mention of FauxNews. Is the Code-Pink-Fringe is slipping? "
Tortured Logic wrote on Nov 18, 2007 5:30 PM:
" Waterboarding is torture, and therefore ILLEGAL, according to the US Army Field Manual. Abortion is LEGAL, with less than 1 percent involving one specific medical technique designed to protect a woman's life. But Dale Gabriel doesn't want to talk about the LAW. And Dale doesn't want to talk about the MORALITY of torturing suspects and forcing girls and women to bear children. Instead, Dale wants to attack the beliefs of the vast majority of Americans, who are disgusted by the idea that our country would torture anyone. And he is willing to lie about abortion in order to force himself on the rest of us. Sorry Dale, you're not going to get your way. "
me wrote on Nov 18, 2007 3:17 PM:
" What a way to get the point across, D. Gabriel. "
HMmmmsez wrote on Nov 18, 2007 2:24 PM:
" How many partial birth abortions were actually performed here in America last year. I've heard few if any. Also. I say today's guarantor of life should have committed himself and his followers to voice that same concern for a new born through age eighteen when he or she may be seduced into taking up arms whilst most all well to do eighteen year olds enjoy life here at home. Sounds like he might be for water boarding and that's OK by me cause I figure alls fair in love and especially in war. I'm not bound by religion like todays pro lifer is. Even thogh Im agnostic and secular in my thinking. I'm pro life too and my thinking has to include child welfare through college. But then Republican Christians mostly don't believe in tax funded education. They wanna make sure a kid gets here, and that's about it. "
yes or no wrote on Nov 18, 2007 10:03 AM:
" Dale, are you for torture or not? Abortion is a terrible thing, as is capitol punishment and war. If everyone stood together to uphold the right to all life, and not just one part of the problem maybe we could get something done. If we as a nation uphold the right to torture in the name of freedom then abortion too is ok. If we say its ok to murder people in the name of capitol punishment then abortion is ok. It's either ok to kill or it's not. One life does not warrent protection over another. If you say it does then all we do is decide who should die and who should not die. I say no one should die at the hands of another. Stop the war, stop capitol punishment and stop abortion. "
Unforgettable wrote on Nov 18, 2007 9:24 AM:
" When the honorable Richard Durbin compared the United Stated soldiers in Guantanamo Bay to "Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others" on the floor of the US Senate. It was due to the soldiers actions towards prisoners that believe if you do not believe their way then you should die or pay a non-believer tax. some of these actions quoted by Durbin included turning the air condition either up or down and "load rap music", wonder what he calls the doctors who perform late term abortions and those who condone it, campaign contributors? "
1st Amendment wrote on Nov 18, 2007 8:40 AM:
" RE: Dale Gabriel- The problem with waterboarding or torutre in general is that we have a very poor record of using it on innocent people. We now know that Afghan warlords sold out their enemies as "terrorists" whether they were or not. Most of those in Gitmo we can't prsecute because we have no evidence they did anything, only suspicion, etc. Counter intelligence experts say that despite what you see on 24, torture is not an effective way to get information, as people will often make things up just to make it stop. Should the defender of freedom torture possibly innocent people just in case they have info? No, we should go after the people we know are terrorist and take them out with counter insurgent tactics, not by invading countries that have nothing to do with 9-11. No body likes abortion, nobody wants there to be lots of abortions. But one reason there is such a need for abortions is because the same people like Gabriel oppose sex education and access to contraceptives for teenagers. They continue to push abstinence only which has been proven time and time again to fail. Also, these people don't want ANY access to abortion, not just partial birth, they even want to ban access to Plan B which prevents pregnancy. The worst part, is they say they are "Pro-Life" but that is a lie. If they were, they wouldn't oppose social programs that help poor kids survive AFTER they are born. "
BS Shooter wrote on Nov 18, 2007 8:19 AM:
" Dale Gabriel doesn’t get it. Aborted American’s, by virtue of our movement’s gentle nature, have been declared as “fetuses” or “unviable tissue.” On the other hand, terrorists, baby seals and such deserve the protection of our Constitution. Gabriel simply has to work harder to understand the tender nature of Senator Durbin and we who stand with him, lest we compassionately and with tolerance brand him as a rabid religious nut-case or right-wing radical. People of Gabriel’s ilk simply lack the spiritual depth to comprehend that “unviable tissue” cannot feel its dismemberment, and that Al Qaeda, not unlike Mr. Durbin, are promoting understanding and peace for those that submit to their ideology of love and tolerance. "
re: Dale Gabriel wrote on Nov 18, 2007 8:14 AM:
" Dale, one of the best letters I've ever seen in the SI. You really nailed it for Durbin. It is A-OK to kill the unborn but for Durbin, and many others, playing kissy face with those that will murder our children and us is just par for the course. These people are not protected by the Geneva convention in the first place. Dale the bleeding heart blame America first and for everything will be out in force to defend this blood covered man. "
