" @ SouthernILGirl:

I understand your points, and they do make sense.

I realize you can't turn patients away. I realize they will probably come anyway regardless if they have copays or not. That is also why there is now a Triage. I think a solution to the hospital ER would to be to include an Urgent-Care unit along with it; set up some sort of 24-hour PA practice. This practice could refer patients to upstart physicians as well. The main problem with Public Aid Medical is that they pay so slow. An individual doctor just starting out cannot afford to wait 6 months before receiving his first state payment. (even longer sometimes)

Also, in my "LINK" reform, I stated mainly providing the staples. BUT, I also stated, maybe allowing so much for pasta, red meats, and what have you (meaning I could understand allowing for some treats). I would prefer that they have what they need to survive first and foremost.

The other part of LINK, is that people do sell it. I know of about 4-5 people right now that would sell me link for 50 cents on the dollar.

I also stated that "disabled or people over 60" would not fall under the same guidelines. Anybody under 60 who is not disabled can, and should work for what they get in life. Again, I don't care if it's stuffing envelopes, as long as it's something. I can see it taking a year to get back on your feet and get a job (especially with 13% unemployment in some areas). 2 years is questionable. In 2 years you can get an associates degree. "

" wearyinmarion- I spent my freshman year in Madisonville Ky, and it was very much the way you describe as far as knowing the right people. I played error free, did well in practice, I got to start one game because the regular guy was out of town. I hit the cycle (single, double, triple, HR) and was still riding the pine the next game. That was it for me and baseball. So i feel for you and you relative.

Its a shame schools around here don't have debate teams. Its a bid deal in the mid and northern parts of the state (well not like football, but its well funded). I debated in high school and it was a great leg up when i went to college, it was an education by itself. "

" I totally agree-Coach Martin is an honorable, good, Christian man. I am thankful for his prayer time before games and his example of true manhood. I am saying that all these young men when asked to put in the 2-3 hours practice a day and Saturday and holiday, as well as the more deserved players, do deserve some sort of compensation with a little play time. I know the name of the game is to win, but it is also a matter of team participation - however little it might be. I know how discouraged my relative is and I hate to see that at such a young age - we all go thru enough of that when we "get old". I am just a concerned relative and on - looker from the sideline. "

" wearyinmarion- i don't know much about the marion school system. However, i do know the football coach and he is a good and honorable man. He was my coach early on in his career and frankly, I can't think of a bad thing to say about the man. Football is a tough game and not everyone is cut out to be a starter. You even acknowledge that your relative isn't great. Any coach has to play his best people. Marion may have problems you describe, but i must say that coach martin ain't one of them. "

" Don't know if this is the place to address this issue, but says voice of the reader of which I am one. I am a relative of a young person going to Marion High School and he so wants to play football. He has gone out for football, attends the practices, and does all he is asked to do but doesn't get to put in any play time at games. Now, I admit, he isn't a Joe Namath, but he has a desire and he (as well as others) are being dealt with just like all other issues in the community of Marion. If you aren't "great", can't offer lots of money, don't own lots of stuff, and don't have the right last name, you are out of luck. We told him Marion is a community where if you can't do something for me then sorry and too bad for you. We have tried to explain to him that Marion is such a clickish community from its schools to its politics, but he just says that isn't right. What do you say? He's right.
All the issues that are addressed in these comments - the extra tax bills, the need for a new court house, a new jail, the fact that one man stopped the building of the new Creal school ( where the present facility is so run down) and the new high school as well.
Marion doesn't have a good reputation with other schools nor other communities, and that certainly doesn't help with us trying to raise our children with good values and equal treatment for all. It sadens me that so few (with the money and the name) can so easily run this community to the ssatisfaction of their own political gains, to gain more money, and to make sure we only play the players that can win one for Marion. So sad!!! "

" Hello All,
I'm going to ignore most of the fighting and comments earlier in the forum and focus on the issues where we are all "wearing our big boy undies" and talking like civil people.
Here are my 2 cents on the idea of welfare reform:
I do think something SHOULD be done. BUT it is very difficult to do anything when we are thinking of welfare recipients as "those people." The "us vs. them" mentality does not let us put ourselves in their shoes.
I work in a hospital, and I know how incredibly little we get from medical card patients (and how long it takes the money to come in!). Charging a co-pay would not work, as we can't deny services, and as someone mentioned - billing patients does not work if they have no money and no desire to keep a good credit rating. Many of the patients we see do not report even HAVING a doctor because they come to the ER for every ailment. My brother's wife drags all 3 of her kids to the hospital every time one of them so much as sneezes (to the point that the ER nurses there see her walking in, ask her two questions, and usually just hand her a container of children's tylenol and send her on her way!)(She's an idiot!)
Possible solutions? Perhaps drawing new physicians that take medical cards to the area could help to deflect this? Maybe allowing tax breaks to doctors willing to set up practices with late hours in the most rural and impoverished areas of the state?

As for the LINK card - I remember when I was a kid, we had food stamps from time to time. (My parents were general contractors and mostly roofed - which is less than steady in the snow!) I also remember that name brand food was not something we had in the house. Big K soda, if there was any at all, generic cereal, even the cheapest bread and tuna.
My parents are now link recepients (Dad is disabled and Mom provides full-time care.) At the end of each month, they usually have a little left on the card... and they get less per month than *I* spend on groceries. Is it right to declare that if they spend 90% of the month eating conservatively (lots of chicken leg quarters cause they are cheap!) that they should not be allowed steaks and shrimp one night?

Of course, I also have a friend who is a single dad and gets link - which he spends on Oreos, Doritos, Goldfish, Cokes, Steaks, and microwaveable meals. (And my idiot brother's idiot wife is usually out of all of her grocery money for the month on day 3 and only gets about 1 1/2 cartloads!) "

" what good is education if you can't put
it to use! we would make more debt if we did not create more jobs before
instituting education. don't put the
cart before the horse! "

" madblogger- i tried to respond before but had a problem getting on the site. i appreciate the give and take also. It is far more satisfying to get an intelligent perspective that is both different then my own and untainted by animosity, then it is to see how silly I can make someone look. Not that i've been innocent in that regard. Anyway, I appreciate the discussion......Grayson, good points as always. "

" Good Morning Madblogger,

We have, obviously, covered some of the same ground an observed some of the same, very troubling, abuses.

During high school in Marion, back before I went into the service in the early seventies, I worked at both Kroger (the old store on West Main) and the "new" IGA.

Back then, it was foos stamps. Many of the recipiants were good honest folks who fell on hard times. For most, food stamps were a temporary fix until they got back on their feet.

Today, however, I know things are different. I too, have stood in line buying low cost staples and observed many Link card receipients eating "high on the hog". Strangely, most of the items purchased were convenience foods with very little, if any, substantive nutritional value.

I also used to work in a rather large metropolitan area back in the 1990s. On the first of the month (check day), many folks would come to the National Food Store, get a few groceries and then line up at the service counter (all the way out the door into the parking lot)to waste their "disposable income) (our tax dollars) on cigarettes, booze, and lottery tickets.

This is one of the main reasons I object to the use of increased lottery proceeds to fund state projects.

When people are desperate, have no hope, and their is no visualization of what a normal life would be, e.g., stay in school, develop skills for employment, get married, have children, pay taxes, serve the community, etc., they frequently anesthetize themselves to their unfortunate circumstances with drugs and alcohol and just "exist". What is even more tragic, is that this is what they pass on to their children.

We must stop this pattern of social degeneration.

The middle class and working poor have become "parasitic hosts" to failed social/economic political poliices.

These failed policies originate from both the left and the right.

Case in point: In Pulaski County, where I serve as the SA, 80% of the crime that is committed is either directly or indirectly attributable to alcohol and/or substance abuse.

Now, our state government is reducing 55 million for substance abuse evaluation, treatment, and counseling.

How can state government legitimately reduce funding to the primary precursor of crime?

The first responsibility of government is toi provide for the public safety.

If our "leadership" believes they can find $25,000,000,000 to fix roads and bridges, why can they not invest 1/5 of 1% of that amount fixing people? "

" To Grayson:

When are you going to come back to Williamson county? Your integrity and sound judgement is needed here.

With that said, I invite you to visit various medical clinics and ask the workers whether they see any problem with medicaid patients, other than the slow-pay problems.

I would also suggest making grocery stores card Link users.

On the topic of Link, what's wrong with providing the users with only the staples of survival? I see no problem with only issuing certain food items to welfare recipients. Much like WIC, only, not name brand items.

I would like a breakdown of how Link is spent.... steaks, junkfood, etc. etc.

Should Link be spent on soda or steaks? M&M's? Chips?

How about a list of what Link can purchase? I feel that if you limit Link to items that don't appeal to everybody, that misuse will subside. After all, I'm not going to buy Link off of somebody, if all I can get is eggs, spam, cereal, bread, hot dogs, bolgna, milk, juice, canned vegetables/fruits or government cheese. Would you be condemning anybody to starve? Nope. You could even add in so much pasta, and so much red meat.

You'd just be fixing the main problem with Link. If one chooses to be on welfare, then they follow the guidelines.

If you have any doubts about Link, go to a grocery store on the first of each month. Look at what they buy, then make your own decisions.

I've worked in healthcare, and I've also worked grocery. I didn't say so before, as I wish to remain anonymous. I feel if I give up my true identity, there will be reprecussions. Especially since I, at times, speak out against those I work for. Or at least the special treatment they receive. "

" Hello Folks,

To my friends 1st Amendment and Madblogger:

I hope this doesn't embarass you, but the last two posts were everything that I could hope for and more.

Articulate, rational, well reasoned, but differing points of view from two great Americans.

The two of you have demonstrated to us all that this forum has tremendous value.

You both educated me, caused me to think, and contributed to my knowledge of these very important and substantive issues.

You both did so with directness, tact, and gave each other their rightful due.

You both have made me a very happy man this evening. There is hope for our region, our state, and our country.

You folks proved it.

Thanks. "

" First of all, let me commend you on a well thought out post, and apologize. "Disillusioned" was probably too strong a word. Sometimes, when you're passionate about something, you tend to get carried away.

I agree that there's a paradox involved in the cost of preventing fraud, in the fact that it may cost more to prevent it than to allow the status quo. That doesn't mean that it's not a problem.

I also agree, that a poor person is less concerned about their credit score, than they are about getting medical attention. The right to treatment exists towards emergency rooms, and not family practices or urgent care centers. It would be up to the providers in those cases to write off copays and deductibles; something often practiced when one doesn't have the ability to pay. The hospitals with emergency rooms that are required to treat, also write off thousands of dollars every year for those who cannot afford it. There are also charities that pick up some of those costs, one merely needs to apply and show need.

My stance on the health care problem is to free up the system from unnecessary visits. (i.e. the common cold). I can't afford to go to the doctor whenever I'm feeling down all of the time. I weigh the situation. There again is a problem. Everybody feels illness different. Some feel that the world is going to end, some "tough" it out. I'm not saying make everybody tough it out, I'm just saying that there's a lot of visits that aren't necessarily warranted. If you could eliminate even 1/2 of the medical visits that there was nothing that could be done rather than suggest more fluids and rest, you would be saving a ton of money. How much? I don't know. I've never seen any studies involving unnecessary medical visits.

I appreciate your Warren Buffet example, but we're talking dividends as opposed to income tax. Sure, it's not fair, because, after all, it is disposable income either way. I'll be the first to say that the tax system is terribly flawed. I'd also be the first to support a flat tax. Let us not forget who the largest contributors to campaigns are: Why wouldn't law makers (a great deal of which who are also wealthy) protect their investors? I don't have all of the answers, and I don't pretend to. I do see things that I feel are problems.

As far as my income tax liability, I am by no means even close to being exempt. The reason? Lack of sound judgement. I had too many kids. I pay around 50% of my take home wages towards child support. It's my responsibility, I accept it. That child support doesn't decrease my income tax liability. So, if I make 30K, my tax liability is at the 30K level, not the 10K level I have to survive on. Again, my responsibility, I accept it.

As far as taxing the upper class, well, it sounds good on paper, but it's not a good solution in my book to redistribute wealth.

I'm not hard to figure out. I want less government, and more personal responsibility. I may even anger a lot of people in my continuing questions about the need for more taxes. It's not my intentions, it's just my beliefs.

Do I think we need a capital spending plan? Yes, but at what cost? Who benefits from it? I'm not going to support something that gives the upper 2/3rds of the state 90% of the benefit. Especially when the lower part of the state needs the jobs. 13% unemployment for some of these counties is atrocious.

I just have a hard time believing that our way out of this mess is to raise taxes.

In closing, I appreciate your comments. You do make valid points, and you are no doubt, intelligent. We may disagree on how to get there, but we both agree we need to get there. "

" madblogger- 1. the 1996 reforms imposed work requirements and severely limited who can get cash assistance, even those with families must have some valid reason that they cannot work.

2. you misinterpret my point that these people won’t pay, its irrelevant whether you and I think its important to pay, the bottom line is neither you nor the government can make them pay if they neither care nor are impacted by credit scores, in short, you can’t fund a capital program by expecting poor people to pay for medical treatment that they can’t be denied even if they can’t or don’t pay (your funding will be ate up by worsening the healthcare system), for many, the concept of “i owe this bill to keep my good name” doesn’t have the same meaning especially if the people are unable to get off the rolls,

3. please don’t refer to me as disillusioned when the best you can do is say “i know a guy...” because it really detracts from your credibility. Remember what happens when you assume....also, increased welfare fraud enforcement would have to save more money then the enforcement itself costs to be efficient, and frankly, there is no reason to think that: A. there’s enough fraud to stop that would cover the costs of enforcement, and B. there would be any significant savings beyond that to transfer to the capital program,

4. ultimately, it is clear you want to reform welfare, and as far as eliminating fraud goes, I say more power to you, but there is no reason to think it would generate enough funds, and there is ample room to think it would be doomed by the law of unintended consequences.,

5. As for “trying to incite class envy,” well that is ridiculous on several fronts: a. in a democracy, the political trumps the economic, that doesn’t mean we don’t want a market economy, but it does mean that as democratic society, we can decide that taxes on the wealthy need to be higher or lower as the situation demands. I'll admit you can over-regulate or over-tax, but when dividends are taxed ata max rate of 15%, but a secretary pays 35%, the rich can afford to pay more, and should pay more because they use more of the commons then does the working poor person.,

6. along that same line of reasoning, the constitution guarentees a democratic republic, not an unregulated free market, so a corporation has to bend to the will of the people, unless you mistakenly think we can't regulate corporate activity.

7. if you make $800 a month, then nobody (no welfare recipients) is eating on your dime because you don't pay net income taxes, period.

8. in fact, you would be better off if we taxed upper income folks, instead of sales taxes, but a sales tax hike of 1% would still only be an extra $1.00 per 100 spent so, I think that it would be worth it. Even though i personally would prefer it come from the top 1%, the capital program is worth it. "

" It's my belief that welfare should be a means to get back on your feet. Not a means to live off of the other tax-payers. The 1996 welfare reforms mainly cut out cash, and a single person without kids ability to get benefits. Personally, I feel, if you are not disabled, that after a year of being on welfare, you should be made to do something to earn your way. I don't care if it's picking up trash on the side of the road or reading water meters, or whatever.

Maybe one should go around asking some of the nurses in the area whether they think that people with medical cards are more likely to come in for something like a cold or belly ache, than would a contracted insurance patient. You'd be surprised the answers you get. Also, if a family with regular insurance has to plan around the costs of having a baby, why shouldn't the medical card recipient?

I'm just saying that by adding a 20% copay and a deductible that is the same as Medicare's (around $150 a year) for those who are NOT disabled and UNDER 60 (Primary card holder), will eliminate a lot of unnecessary office/ER visits. If an office visit costs $80, the copay will be $20. That's what our retired people pay.

You cite that they cannot pay. Look, I make under $800 a month, and I get no government assistance (and do not want any). If I go to the ER, my card states $150 for ER visits. My annual deductible is like $3000. Copays - $20. Trust me, in an emergency situation, I cannot pay the bills I will accrue, but they will be MY BILLS. Does this mean I shouldn't owe this money, because, by all rights, I am way below poverty level? Does that give me the right to not have to pay what the rest of us would normally have to?

Alright, you don't like the Link limit set at $350? Why not do something like this:
Year 1: 100%
Year 2: 80%
Year 3: 60%
Year 4+: 50%
Also, do like unemployment, make the recipients list the jobs they applied for.

You're disillusioned if you don't think welfare fraud isn't prevalent in this area. A simple surprise inspection of welfare recipients would prove this.

Instead of the link card, why don't they just allow them the staples (like WIC for instance)? You know - give them eggs, cheese, spam, bread, butter, cereal, hot dogs, milk, juice, canned vegetables, and bologna. I find it very disturbing to see a person with a link card buying $50 worth of rib-eyes. I mean, if they're going to eat on my dime, let them eat spam steaks, not filet mignon. Welfare reform? Pffft.

Trying to incite class envy isn't going to fund the capital bill either. What would you have us do? Tax the richest guy in Illinois about 10 times more? Guarantee when you do that, he moves to Missouri or something. That, and it might anger him enough to take his businesses there as well. And may as well forget about taxing evil corporations. They pass those taxes on to the consumers every time in the way of higher prices.

Let's face it, the middle class will always make up the bulk of the tax-payers. So the solution has to start with government's responsibility to it's constituents, i.e. mainly the middle class. I think there has to be a real inspection of every state funded project to deem whether it's a waste of our money or not (and whether it's ethical).

I just can't see how the answer always has to come to "Raising Taxes". It seems like everytime we do, the problem doesn't go away. I'm on the bottom rung, as far as financially speaking, and I can tell you these taxes add up after time. To keep adding to my taxes is going to push me to the point that I never wanted to take, and that's government assistance. I qualify now, without a doubt. To be honest, I'm seriously thinking of moving from this state. Illinois will always vote Chicago's will. "

" Madblogger- since the 1996 Welfare reform, the rolls and the expenditures have been cut to about as low as they can be. Any realistic view of current benefits could not conclude that any reasonable person has an incentive to choose welfare over work, it is by and large subsistence living.

You cite to anecdotal examples of: 1. benefit fraud, and 2. a family of 5 going to emergency rooms with colds on a medical card. The problem is that anecdotal evidence does not mean such examples present an accurate picture of the average. In other words, because you knew someone who cheated does not mean that cheating is widespread, nor does it imply a solution beyond greater oversight. Also, you suggestion that with rising inflation/gas prices, falling real wages, rising personal debt, the mortgage crisis, outsourcing of middle class jobs, etc,..we should dump costs on those most unlikely and unable to pay is problematic. First, these people will likely not be able to pay co-pays, etc, second, most aren’t motivated by credit implications, third, ERs cannot refuse to aid in emergencies regardless of ability to pay.

You say that “Now if Link's limit was set to say $350, a woman might think twice about having another kid.” Most problematic here is you would put the state in the position of allowing “innocents” to starve in some cases. This would not sit well with people who have a consistent “pro-life” position (in other words life is important both before and after birth). Perhaps we could lobby the Federal government to fund sex education that is not limited to “abstinence only”; programs that teach prophylactic use have a demonstrably better effect of pregnancy rates.

I must reiterate a point I’ve made before, when 1% of Americans control more wealth then the bottom 70%, it’s really kind of ridiculous to put funding for new programs on the backs of the indigents. Remember, for every cracked-out professional-welfare mom you can find, I can produce the tearjerker- you know the person who is disabled but can’t get ssi, or the middle class family that is down and out because their insurance company shafted them when the mom breadwinner got cancer and died, or the middle class family that had their job outsourced, then lost their home, or the grandma who is taking care of lots of grandkids, are you gonna make it harder for those folks? Many can come off the rolls if given time and opportunity, lets not put the burden on their backs "

" To My Friend Maddblogger and others who give a "hoot" about the welfare of our state:

This editorial appeared back in early May. As I recall, nobody commented pro or con.

Any suggestions, comments, or constructive critiques would be very much appreciated.

As a side note: Yes, you could probably say I have something of an obsesion with this issue. Nevertheless, in the overal scheme of things, I believe the Capital, and how we pay for it, is the most pressing issue for Illinoisan (in addition to ethics and campaign finance reform).


To the Editor:

Here is the challenge - we need to come up with $25 billion for the Illinois Works Capital Program. The governor and many legislators say no to new taxes. Gaming revenue is not going to even come remotely close to picking up the tab.

There are no easy solutions. The following suggestions are, however, a few start points for consideration:

Prioritize what is truly essential to the people of Illinois and scrap the non-essential. Restructure the existing social programs to get people off of public aid and into the workforce. Currently, 29 percent of our state budget (the highest percentage of our annual budget) is allocated to public aid and Medicaid.

Accomplish the aforementioned through incentives that make acquiring job skills a top priority. Ensure that the working poor and middle class are able to make a living wage. Mobilize the resources and expertise of our community colleges, universities, and labor unions to provide job training in exchange for public aid benefits.

Once we restructure the state's policies and enact legislation that truly liberates our citizens from multi-generational poverty, a much greater share of the saving can be allocated to paying for the Illinois Works Capital Program.

It is said that the Illinois Works Capital Program will employ 700,000 workers. Hopefully, many of these workers will come from the aforementioned job training programs. The results will not only employ Illinoisans and build our infrastructure, but also pay long-term strategic benefits through a trained, employable and healthier society that is finally in the running for the American dream.

Grayson Gile

Vienna "

" Steve, we disagree. I feel that Blago is no more representative of the federal Democratic Party than is Lieberman. Say what you will about the fed Dems (and I'm sure you will), but guilt by association with the Ill (as in sick?) Dem party just doesn't work.

If an inexperienced Democrat takes over the White House, he'll do it with a staff just like every other president has done. I can't imagine anything like the economic chaos and foreign affairs debacle of the last 8 (almost) years. "

" RE: CAPITAL BILL CONTINUED

Southern Illinois is about 3.5% of the State population, and our influence in Springfield is, and will always be, about in the same proportion. We are kidding ourselves if we are looking for a capital bill that is not slanted toward Cook County.

Southern Illinois Senators and Representatives need to work together and set priorities for our region. We need to assure passage of high impact projects that will set the stage for future economic development. If they take a self-serving approach to capital development, even if individually successful, it will not stimulate the economic development we desperately need.

Many of our school in Southern Illinois are in need of repair or replacement. Many towns need new sewer and water systems, updated fire protection, and revitalized downtown areas.

Although the State has a Constitutional obligation for public education, it has no such obligation for local projects. When we look to the State for funding local projects, we inflate the State budget with “add-ons.” Local self-reliance would go a long way toward correcting the mess in Springfield.

A Capital Bill should contain only project that are truly a State responsibility and exclude those local projects which are jumping on the band wagon in hopes of acquiring funding by hiding in a large, pork ridden bill.

Who knows how much a realistic capital bill could be reduced if the media would expose “legislator initiatives.” (i.e. That’s newspeak for pork!)

Ron Emery "

" While Emery has put a lot of thought into his proposal, it still relies on one thing: raising taxes. We can't just go raising the sales tax (or the various other proposed tax increases)anytime we can't find the money to fund something.

I was raised to only buy what you can afford. If I have $10, and want a $20 steak, well, it looks like I'm eating burgers.

I can think of a lot of ways to find the money. Let's just start with one:
Healthcare -
No, I'm not saying cut healthcare; well, not exactly. I have friends who work in the medical field. If you've ever talked to someone who works in healthcare, they'll tell you that the medical card is abused. We're talking about a family of 5 going in to the emergency room because they have colds.

What I'm suggesting is for people on the medical card under the age of 60, and not disabled, (going by the primary insured's age and not disabled) to have 20% copays and an annual deductible equal to Medicare's annual deductible, as well as say, like $100 emergency room copay.

The disabled and elderly will not be affected, but the able-bodied will.

Also, there is a problem with people getting prescriptions, not for themselves, but rather, to sell. How do you stop it? Well, drug testing for one to make sure they're taking the prescriptions. Another way would be to raise copays on narcotic prescriptions, while lowering on general pain killers. For example, vicodin having a $50 copay, whereas prescription Tylenol having a $1 copay. At least have some sort of system in place making it harder to get the pain meds that they sell on the streets.

Let's face it, healthcare is one of our largest expenses where it comes to the budget. You also have to realize it's abused tremendously. It costs a small fortune to bring a child into this world, yet, welfare mothers seem to just keep having kids at our expense.

Speaking of welfare; when are we going to fix it? In the words of Ronald Regan:
"Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as far as possible, the need for its own existence."

But it's not, is it? Surely the ones on public aid can do something. Even if it's stuffing envelopes from home. There should be a limit as to how much a person can receive in benefits as well. I knew a woman who was receiving $750 a month in Link. She claimed her husband (who worked under the table) and 5 children - 3 of which actually lived with her. Now if Link's limit was set to say $350, a woman might think twice about having another kid. I mean, surely, they know how it happens (getting pregnant that is). Time for people to start taking responsibility for their actions.

Also, if I have to get random drug tests for work, why don't welfare recipients? Also, why don't they start asking for picture ID's at grocery stores for the Link cards? You can buy Link 50 cents on the dollar.

Look, I don't have all of the answers, but I do know of some things that need to be fixed. "

" I commented on emery's part1 below (I had some issues with some of his funding sources, then i made dumb/true chinese import jokes), I prefer his part2 suggestions, at least as a more equitable funding mechanism. "

" Good Morning Folks,

To my Friend Madblogger: I fully understand and empathize with your concerns. Politicians can be real philanthropic with somebody else's money. Additionally, using the taxpayer's money to build your political support base is nothing new--albeit very, very, wrong. Out of $25,000,000,000 a million to this guy, a miliion to that guy. I know you already see the picture.

If you have the time today, I would appreciate you taking a look at Ron Emery's proposal. Pehaps a bit more "do-able", safe, and less subject to abuse.

To my friends 1st Amendment, Joe Duncan, Bill of Rights, Steve.s, Geez, Bugler and other smart folks, I would appreciate you either commenting of Mr. Emery's idea, or come up with your own.

Folks this is a real important issue--now iand in the long term. THe outcome of the 2008 elections will be a distant memory while we are still dealing with the tresults of the Capital Development plan.

Thank You. "

" bugler wrote on Aug 27, 2008 10:05 AM:

"Illinois politics is Illinois politics, and it is a sorry mess on both sides"

Or it could be said that Illinois politics is Chicago politics. What Daley wants, Daley usually gets. "

" While, I usually find myself in agreement with Grayson and his call towards more responsible government, I must say that I am a little bit concerned about his stance on the Capital Development Plan.

Don't get me wrong; I'm all for creating thousands of jobs, but in the same breathe, I can't support our government being the source of those jobs. I fear, in the future, these type jobs will be held ransom to promote someone else's political agenda.

Also, I cannot support anymore new taxes. Do we not pay enough now?

Why don't we start by fixing and eliminating what doesn't work in our government? We've all heard of "Government waste", yet I don't see the problems being resolved. It is our duty as citizens to make sure our government doesn't do what it has been for the last few decades. There is a ton of money going everywhere. Creating artificial jobs is only an artificial fix.

Why don't we start off by making some hard decisions and eliminating agencies that really do nothing other than exist?

I've met Grayson a few times, even done some work for him. He's a good guy. I only wish he would bring his integrity back to Williamson county. "

" Bugler: Now we are splitting hairs. We are now supposed to agree that the Illinois Democratic party is not in association with the national Democratic party? Sorry, I don't buy it. The Republicans in this state have had very little say for two reasons. 1. Limited numbers 2. The Democrats have been so busy fighting among themselves that they haven't seen the need to. I might say the same thing if the Republicans ever had that much of a majority but since I don't ever see that happening, it is moot. My point still is, that if an inexperienced Democrat takes over the White House and more Democrats are elected to an already Democrat controlled congress, well, it's not going to be pretty. "

" Steve,

The song never changes because the errors are never corrected. But on another matter: please don't confuse the Illinois state Democratic Party with the Democrats (and similarly with the Republicans). Illinois politics is Illinois politics, and it is a sorry mess on both sides. Those of us who supported Obama when he first ran in federal politics saw him as being NOT in the mold of the Illinois electorate. Don't accuse him of being another Blobovich-type Illinois political hack (or Ryan-type or Jones-type or Topinka-type, note I don't distinguish parties) unless you have REAL evidence. Guilt by association doesn't count. "

" Emery- I agree with much of what you say, but I'm wary of more toll roads. poor people have the freedom to travel also. I was in texas recently and it was crazy, you could spend $10 a day in just a small area. Taking an alternate route wouldn't help because of increased gas use, especially for commuters. Unless you had a discounted resident program....as for decreasing welfare, unless you know something i don't, I'm pretty sure its at the bare ones now. You may already be aware that in 1996 a GOP Congress sent Clinton a Welfare Reform bill that he signed. This drastically cut the welfare rolls. I researched figures on it not long after and very few people qualify for cash assistance anymore, there has to be valid inability to work just to get the pittance that is available. Its really subsistance living. You might say we could cut funding to LIHEAP (i'm not sure what illinois expends there), but then who gets to answer for the spike in elderly deaths in summer and winter? Frankly, with the mass exodus of middle class jobs to China and India, and dropping real wages for working families, mortgage crises, skyrocketing personal debt rates, and a 1% wealthy class that controls more wealth then the bottom 70%, we should look at different kinds of areas for funding. Perhaps bumping up taxes on corporate dividends, estate taxes over $5 million (farm exemption), fines for toxic dumpers, (Joking now, no offense intended)...then again at the rate we're going with the current pro-corporate trade policy we can just sell lots and lots of property to China and India, maybe they could buy naming rights to our national monuments, i know, how about "Tiannemen Square State Park" or "There's Lead in Your Teething Ring Trail", or everyone's favorite "There's Anti-Freeze in Your Toothpaste and We Poisoned Your Dog Expressway." Sorry to get off on a tangent, I know some kind of capitol bill needs funding, promoting education should be job one if we're committed to competing in this global economy. "

" To My Freind Ron Emery:

Thank you! Thank You! Thank You!

This is the type of post that I have been witing to see.

I am not saying whether I agree with your posts or not--that is irrelevant.

What I am saying is this: You are thinking, your are constructive in your comments, and your are doing your best to contribute to the betterment of our state.

Once again, thank you. You serve as an example to us all. "

" Joe Duncan!

It sure is nice to see you back. I was concerned that you had given up. "Ditto" to your post. I completely agree. In fact, I hate to see 1st Amendment, Bill of Rights, Geez, Bugler, Steve S. and all these good folks get drawn in to the left-right debates. They have so much to contribute without the back and forth.

To my friend 1st: Thank you for your post regarding the "cease-fire". You have a future as a public servant. One of the first things, and one of the most difficult lessons to learn, is to keep your cool--especially when baited or drawn into an ambush.

Today, while getting ready for work, I was thinking about the old addage:

If you are not a lefty at 20 you have no heart.

If you are not a conservative at 40 you have no head.

I will add that there is some truth to this. I have, in the past been both liberal and conservative. That is why, at 53, I consider myself to be a centrist.

1st Amendment is right. It takes both liberals and conseravtives, and the best of their commensurate ideals, to really help craft the type of society that is most inducive to the public good.

Please folks, set political labels and taxonomies aside. Step back, gain some perspective, and realize that no one has a complete monopoly on good ideas.

Remember, it takes both the left, and the right foot, to get where we are going. "

" Joe, I get a little cranky too when some of these people on here take every opportunity to bash Bush, Cheney, Rove et al or Republicans in general with the same ole same ole. Their song never changes. Even the most ardent Democrat supporters must see what a mess this state is in yet they want to put a Blago, Jones, Madigan and Daley clone with minimal experience such as Obama in the White House and stock the congress with more Pelosi's Boxer's Reid's and more Democrats just as has happened in Illinois so that the nation is run the same way. Does anyone see a pattern forming here? I saw it coming in Illinois and now I see it for the nation. Obama will be as good a president as Blago has been a governor here in Illinois. "

" RE: CAPITAL BILL CONTINUED

To the Editor:

A Capital Development Bill depends on a revenue source to pay for it.

In 2002, the State of Illinois generated $131,469,518,000 in retail sales. A sales tax of only 1% would generate $1.31 Billion dollars, enough to fund each years Capital development projects. That is if we pass a Capital Development Bill of $2-3 Billion every 2 years to fund specific priorities.

A sales tax is not the only option.

Each year billions of dollars flow out of the State in the form of interest on credit cards, auto and home loans. The State should tax the interest on these transactions or charge a fee for doing business in the State. If the State would recapture only a small percent of that interest it would more than pay for capital development.

The State should also tax internet sales. In-State internet sales should be no different than over the counter sales. The State needs to recover some of the stream of money that leaves the State on internet sales.

Tax on services is another option. Tax on service is in reality no different that tax on material goods. They are both the “product” of a transaction.

No one likes taxes, but we sure do like the things they provide for us. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Ron Emery "

" RE: CAPITAL BILL

The failed Capital Bill had 4 major flaws. It was too large, covered too long a period of time, was funded by gambling, and promised something for everyone.

A workable Capital Bill would be in the range of $3-4 Billion, cover 2-3 years, fund priorities established by departments, and be funded by sales tax, user fees, (i.e. toll roads and bridges) internet sales tax, and reduced expenditures on welfare.

A series of such bills over the next 10-15 years would be easier to pass, fund, and control than one larger appropriation. It would be harder to hide pork in a smaller bill than in the larger versions.

Many communities could offset capital cost to the State, by passing sales tax similar to Williamson County for school construction. Although the State has a Constitutional obligation as the entity with “primary” responsibility of public education, it does not follow that it is the only entity with responsibility.

We should not expand gambling! We should not build government on the vises of the people, but on their virtues.

To be continued.

Ron Emery "

" I kept it civil for a while but the constant Rovian labeling of some ideas on the left started to bother me. Rove and Gingrich have been very effective at re-defining the word "liberal" and other terms as loaded with negative connotations. I see the right wing TV pundits sell, sell, sell, their inaccurate, misleading propaganda, then i see that same ill-framed, inaccurate talking points end up on this site. At some point I thought 'maybe these folks should see how they like it when I cast them as the "whackos" or "moonbats" etc, albeit my language was more direct, and insulting. While I see little difference in using ad hominems to attack a hypothetical person who shares my views, as opposed to when I use similar tactics directly on someone, I will acknowledge I may have been a little too agressive. But is that where the line is drawn? Its ok to use ad hominems in reference to the larger group that you may be part of, but not against the individual blogger? I, 1st Amendment, will unilaterally stop "name calling" against individual bloggers, and will not engage in name calling against individual bloggers in the future, regardless of how provoked I may feel at the time.... I can get my point across without it. As for insulting the larger group....well we'll see. I would prefer to talk issues, history, econonmics, and global politics without the labels. So consider this my unilateral cease fire. Nice to see you Joe. On a side note, I saw a series on HBO called Generation Kill and i have to recomend it. It was similar to a modern-day "Band of Brothers." And i know what some may think, but no, its not political. It shows the good and bad of the Iraqi invasion, it doesn't take sides. "

" I believe we all need to get past name calling and partisanship and start worrying about the future of the country. My friend 1st Amendment has proven that if one has something worth while to say, and one does it in a polite manner he is a very agreeable person. I also try to be agreeable, but if one goes out of their way to push my buttons, I get cranky as well. My friend Grayson and I have had several conversations with 1st on this site. Even when not seeing everything eye to eye, we manage to be respectful and friendly. Yes, I am a Republican and 1st is a Democrat. But before either of us were political, we were Americans. The US has enough enemies wanting us to tear ourselves apart. We may not always agree with each other, but for the love of God, do we have to insult and belittle each other? There is a time and place to fight, but it is not now between ourselves. "

" 1st.... I don't think I've thrown any big bombs at least none that I'm aware of. I guess you know something I don't that assures you that Obama is going to be elected automatically. As far as Illinois being a blue state I haven't seen anything to brag about for about 6 years. I allude to Grayson and his passion for the capitol bill but it's the Dems. in Springfield or rather Chicago that have been mucking everything up. This state is in debt up to it's hair follicles and Blago, Jones and Madigan with the help of Daley have managed to keep it that way. Yep we're blue alright. "

" Hi Folks,

To my friend 1st Amendment: Thank you very much for your kind words. I am very humbled. Nevertheless, I am disappointed that your kind post served as a catalyst that resulted in the usual right,left, right, left bantering.

Please folks, Left, Right, and Center--do you not realize that while we waste time and intellectual energy in the Right-Left debates with each other, the political elites (both Republican and Democrat) are making decisions that have a dramatic impact on all our lives? Do you not realize that they feel secure to the point of arrogance and condescension to the middle class and working poor?

The ancient Roman elites knew that as long as they provided the body politic with "Bread and Circuses" they were able to maintain power.

Things have not changed. In fact, the technique has been perfected through mass media and infotainment.

We can not afford the luxuary of fighting amongst ourselves. Nothing is accomplished other that a cathartic release of frustration and stress.

Please, I ask all of you, apply your energies in a constructive manner. There are some very bright and genuinely caring folks that take the time to post on this site--this includes 1st A, Bill of Rights, Geez, Bugler and others. Unfortunately, I am afraid that my friend Joe Duncan has given up due to the Right-Left debates.

The Capital Development Plan is one of the most critical issues of our time. Please do not waste your energies and intellectual capital on each other. Please apply these energies in making Illinois a better place.

We the People, and especially our children, deserve it. Please help. It is the right thing to do. "

" Sorry Steve S- I only brought you up because i was noting to Geez who all the big bomb throwers on the right were on this site. For the record, I would've convicted Teddy Kennedy. As for the congress, the dems have a right to brag. The republicans have used the filibuster more then any other congress in history to block the democratic agenda. I do like the fact though that: 1. Obama will get elected no matter how mad it makes redneck white men, and 2. all the republican bomb throwers on this site can't change the illinois vote because Illinois goes blue in federal elections.....OHHHhhhh Yeeaaaahhhh. "

" Well 1st, you just had to drag me into this didn't you by mentioning my name. I had decided to remain silent and let the Dems put on their dog and pony show this week. I even watched the Nancy Pelosi brag about how she, Harry and the Dems. passed all the good legislation the past two years all by themselves. I watched a bit of the Kennedy tribute and his speech. Ironic how the tribute started with scenes of water.... I did enjoy the part about the Hillary Lounge. I had to quit watching however after some of Michelle Obama's speech because I think I came down with a case of diabetes from all the sugar she was spewing. I'm also a little dizzy from all the left turns. Felt like I was watching NASCAR I'll finish the week with reruns of Law and Order and try to build up my insulin and fix my right turn signal. Have a nice week everyone. "

" Geez- one last point, why is it when those you agree with (Billofrights) call names, make rude comments, etc, that never illicits the name calling concern? "

" I had to read Millers letter again. So that was a joke about Alabama, Florida and the Carolinas. LOL! I just thought it was ignorance but now I see that it was a "funny". LOL! "

" Gosh, I forgot to add that it was nice to see bugler up so early....riding in the wagon today or pulling it? Nice to see the attack dogs from the left up early in the morning.......for a change "

" Gee 1st Amendment, I'm really hurt. I'm just a luvable little fuzzball....sorry that I have conservative opinions and core values on societal and fiscal issues. I know I can never find common ground with liberals but I try. Again, LOL, LOL, LOL for Donn S. Miller's "comments" that started this thread. Funny how these tin foil hat folks are simply one note thinkers....Bush will soon be gone...what is this man gonna do in Tamms without someone to vent his bitter hate upon?????????????? "

" Geez wrote on Aug 26, 2008 7:27 AM: " Donn, that letter makes YOU look like the stupid one. 2. Geez wrote on Aug 21, 2008 7:36 AM: " Katie, gas prices are coming down and this is the most pleasant August I can remember. We can generate electricity with nuclear energy, but the libs and tree huggers won't allow it. "3. Geez wrote on Aug 18, 2008 7:32 AM: " let me guess nostuff, you are a Democrat, right??? It was hard to tell which side of the fence you fell off of. Did you hit your head very hard? "…..Admittedly, Geez, you don’t seem to be as bad as Billofrights, SteveS, JJ, Fred, and others, but you still don’t have room to say anything to me. Sure, I’m more blunt, and I call YOU (or whoever) the name. However, I don’t see any moral or etiquette difference in me calling someone a moron because their argument is fundamentally unsound and what you do, which in: example #1 is to unilaterally call someone stupid, example #2 is to label people concerned with the environment as “tree huggers” (I find that term as offensive because it implies a ridiculous action that the vast majority of environmentalists don’t do…also it is no different then if I label republicans “racists,” and then refer to them in that way), example #3 is to imply someone that doesn’t agree with you is mentally delusional. As I said before, you and the rest of the GOP folks on this site can lead the way when it comes to polite discourse, and I’ll happily follow. "

" I make comments based on what is written in letters and other comments that I either agree or disagree with. I take issues with people who talk negatively about the military or who demand more gun control. You would be hard pressed to ever find any case where I used name calling in my responses other than to call someone a Lib or Dem. The words, moron, stupid, idiots, etc are constantly flying out of your mouth. You had a brief respite from this a few months ago after many people called you on the rug for your comments. You apologized for the name calling and your responses were much easier to tolerate. We all disagree on things that are said, but you take things personal and degrade the conversation to the point that it isn't worth pursuing any further discussion. You obviously read all the time and take pride in your knowledge, but your methods for discussion need work. People who regularly post here and disagree with you resort to commenting negatively against you because you don't take anything they say seriously.(other than Grayson) You have this annoying problem of arguing every point to death just to prove you are better than everyone else. I have quit posting on many discussions because I tire of your attitude and language. I have said this before, I would hate to meet you face to face at a party somewhere and have you start in with your rants on whatever the topic is. I would really have to force myself to walk away from you before I did something I would regret later.

I know that last statement will inflame you even further.

Lastly, quoting your favorite slogan, "Feel stupid yet?" "

" Geez- i'm sure i could stand to learn a great deal from Mr Gile, inlcuding turning the other cheek, catching more flies with honey, etc....But you my friend seem to have an amazingly short and selective memory, there have been countless times when you and others unilaterally start blasting away with name calling and ad hominem attacks at any and all liberals and progressives. You throw around deroggatory remarks, then feign outrage because i come along and return the favor. My suggestion to you Geez, is if you don't want me calling you names, then you yourself need to moderate your rhetoric, and i will be happy to follow suit. "

" 1st Amendment wrote on Aug 26, 2008 11:31 AM:

He won't like me saying this, but its a shame that Geez, and billofrights, and dgmlpn, and others don't learn from his articulate and thoughtful positions.

What about your positions and articulate manner, 1st. The only time you are civil around here is when you and your buddy Grayson are s*cking up to each other. You start the name calling right from the start and don't care to listen to anyone who contradicts you. As far as Grayson, I appreciate what he is doing here, stimulating civil conversation. Take a hint from him 1st, civil conversation.

OK, let the flaming begin, 1st. "

" Dear conservative bloggers, and "concerned in JC"- i have had numerous online discussions with Mr. Gile and am convinced that he is a man of great knowledge, integrity, experience, and wisdom. He falls in the conservative spectrum, i fall in on the left side. But i know objectivity and common sense when i see it. Mr. gile would make a great elected official in any office, I just wish he was a democrat. He won't like me saying this, but its a shame that Geez, and billofrights, and dgmlpn, and others don't learn from his articulate and thoughtful positions. As Mr. Gile has many times said, the middle class common man of either party has more in common with their counter-parts then they do with the elite leaders at the top of their own parties. This makes sense to me because i believe that most, if not all, of the solutions to our problems lie in a mixture of ideas from the left and right. Anyway, for what its worth "concerned" Mr. gile is a good man, there is no reason for suspicion. "

" Dear conservative bloggers, and "concerned in JC"- i have had numerous online discussions with Mr. Gile and am convinced that he is a man of great knowledge, integrity, experience, and wisdom. He falls in the conservative spectrum, i fall in on the left side. But i know objectivity and common sense when i see it. Mr. gile would make a great elected official in any office, I just wish he was a democrat. He won't like me saying this, but its a shame that Geez, and billofrights, and dgmlpn, and others don't learn from his srticulate and thoughtful positions. As Mr. Gile has many times the middle class common man of either party has more in common with their counter-parts then they do with the elite leaders at the top of their own parties. This makes sense to me because i believe that most if not all the solutions to our problems lies in solutions that are a mixture of the left and right ideas. Anyway, for what its worth "concerned" Mr. gile is a good man, there is no reason for suspicion. "

" Hi Folks,

I would genuinely appreciate your thoughts regarding the Capital Development Plan.

In the overall scheme of things, this is one of the most critical, and pressing issues, confronting Illinoisans.

Without a comprehensive, workable, and strategic plan, our children and grandchildren will inherit a bankrupt state.

To put the problem into perspective, would you, as a parent, expect your children and grandchildren to pay off the mortgage on your home, payments on your car, and medical expenses you incurred while you were alive?

Folks this is one of the most important issues confronting us. I certainly do not profess to have all the answers. Perhaps, collectively, we could engage in an intelligent (and productive) dialogue.

Thank You,

Grayson "

" I've read a number of letters and comments by Mr. Giles lately that sound like campaign speeches.

When I looked into it, I found that even though he is currently the State's Attorney in Pulaski County, he is now running for the same position in Johnson County.

I'm also concerned about Southern Illinois getting a capital plan, but I also want to know why Mr. Giles is running for a position in Johnson County that he already holds. It just strikes me as a strange move. What's the motivation? "

" And Bush is worried because, remember, his boy pal Rove fabricated evidence in order to get the Dem governor of Alabama jailed; now he is worried the Crimson Tide is rolling into GA.

By the way, Obama wanted the issue brought before the Security Council. I thought it was a great move to force the Russian to veto the amendment and look worse.

Also, to be fair, why is the entire world blindly condeming Russia? Of course they were brutal, but GA was also an instigator here, and it got its great idea from our hero Bush. And then Bush sat back and did nothing. Now add the nation of Georgia that has found our leaders to be paper tigers. "

" Carbondale's Peace Coalition was recently criticized on this page for not protesting Russia's invasion of Georgia, with the comment that these Carbondale peace mongers most likely thought that Georgia, with the help of Alabama, was more that capable of defending itself. Donn is again a little late. One thing for sure though--Donn, unlike Obama knows that there are 50, not 57 states in our Union. "

" Obama is the one who wanted the Security Council to condemn Russia not thinkng Russia is on it LOL "

" Obama was the one who wanted to condemn Russia no thinking that Russia sits on the council LMAO "

" Geez, Bill O'Frights, I guess you guys are so sensitive because Miller's joke is so close to home? Get a sense of humor, get a life ... "

" Donn, that letter makes YOU look like the stupid one. He will be gone soon and you won't have anything to complain about, except for McCain as president. I'm sure you will have some words of wisdom about him. "

" Donn S. Miller...ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL, ...Mr. Miller you need to get some help. Wallowing everyday in hate really is not healthy. Move ON, as they say in tin foil land. "